Euverlèk:Kirchröadsj

Es 't Kirchröadsj gein Limburgs meh Ripuarisch is, dan heure alle artikele in 't Kirchröadsj toch op de Ripuarische Wikipedia? Solejheyen 1 aug 2009 23:09 (CEST)

Öm politiek-kulturele raejes zeunt alle Limburgse dialekte die in Limburg gekald werre erkaant in 't Europees Haandvest vör regionaal tale en tale van minderhede en is 't Limburgs officieel neet taalkundig gedefiniëerd. Dat wert wal mieë gedoeë; kiek b.v. Samisch oonder Eenheed in diversiteet.--Mergelsberg 1 aug 2009 23:45 (CEST)

Kwatsj. Loer nao de Ripuarische Wikipedia. En dao staon zat Kèrkraojdse artikele bij. Daan is 't Kèrkraojs mesjiens wel (oonriechteg) tot 't Limburgs mèt getèld, mer iech vin neet tot me vaan twie wikipedia's kin snoppe. D'r mot toch gewoen 'n dudelek käös gemaak weure. En um ierlek te zien verstaon iech dat Kèrkaojs toch neet altied.--Ortjens 2009 9 nov 18:45 (CEST)

Ich höb döks ouch möjte mit Mestreechs en Norbiks kèn ich ouch slèchs half laeze, laot staon det ich 't begriep es 't gekaldj wuuertj ;) Det is 't naodeil van 't neet höbbe van 'n geünificeerdje spèlling è. Óp det pöntj höbbe weer nag get te lieëre vanne Waolen en Bretónne, meh ja. --OosWesThoesBes 9 nov 2009 18:54 (CET)

En de Frieze. :P Good los vaan de iewege discussie euver 'Wat riechteg Limburgs is', vin iech toch tot me neet zienen taol kin prèsentiere in twie wiki's... Dös es me bij de Limburgstaolege wil blieve, mot 't Kirchroädsj neet in de Ripuarische Wiki... --Ortjens 28 nov 2009 16:50 (CET)

Gewoen zuver praktisch: De mieste lui oet Kèrkraoj höbbe vas gein idee wat "Ripuarisch" is en allemaol neume ze hun taol "Limbörgs". Daorum, en um de op 't Nederlands (en neet op 't Duits) gebaseerde spèlling, laote v'r ze hei touw. Op de Ripuarische Wikipedia zien ze nörges. 𐏂𐎫𐎹𐎴𐎲𐎧 Op nao de 10.000! 28 nov 2009 18:46 (CET)

De meeste mensen in Keulen, Aken of Bonn hebben echter ook geen idee wat "Ripuarisch" is. Dat is een uitsluitend taalwetenschappelijk begrip dat nergens inheems is.

Either way it is unreasonable to have articles in Kerkraads split between two Wikipedias. It's not even that speakers of the Kerkrade dialect consider their dialect to be a separate language, it's that they are unaware of the existence of Ripuarian. It is precisely for this reason that articles in Kerkraads should be moved to the Kölsch (Ripuarian) Wikipedia, and so should articles in other dialects (Bóchezer, Brókkelzer, Völzer and Jömelejer, if articles in the last one aren't there already), that are classified as Ripuarian by linguists. What we have now is, in my opinion, unacceptable. Would you accept articles in Brabantian here? What about Low Saxon? According to this map, Limburgish is spoken in a small southeastern part of North Brabant. If a Brabantian WP was ever created (or if it already has, I dunno), would it be acceptable for speakers of those dialects to submit articles written in their dialect to that Wikipedia, rather than here?

Even better: Would you accept articles written in Luxembourgish? After all, it's a Central Franconian language variety, as is the Kerkrade dialect.

However you choose to handle this situation, having articles written in one and the same language variety (the Kerkrade dialect of Ripuarian) split over two Wikipedias is the worst possible solution. It's not even that speakers of Kerkraads consider it to be a separate language (so that the situation is unlike Serbo-Croatian), it's that they're unaware of the correct linguistic classification. Even Kirchröadsjer Dieksiejoneer says that the dialect is a Ripuarian one and not Limburgish. Here, on the official website of the German town of Herzogenrath it clearly says that the two towns share the same dialect. Then why don't you also allow the Aachen dialect here? Isn't it as similar to the Kerkrade dialect as other Ripuarian varieties spoken in the Netherlands? After all, you already allow editors to write in a dialect that is used in Germany (in addition to the Netherlands, yes, but still).

Ripuarian lacks proper government recognition in the Netherlands. In that regard it seems to be the same as Zeelandic and Brabantian, except that it is - wrongly - treated as "Limburgish". I know that there are bilingual signs in Kerkrade, just as there are in Maastricht - but that doesn't make the legal classification of the few Ripuarian dialects spoken in the extreme south of the province as "Limburgish" linguistically accurate. In fact, we really just have to refer to the situation with Serbo-Croatian in the former Yugoslavia to see that politics is the enemy of science when it comes to linguistics. Also, remember that Limburgish is also spoken in Belgium, where it has no government recognition - so why should that be a deciding factor on anything?

Before you ask, yes, I can follow written Dutch and German to an extent, which makes reading Limburgish to be a relatively easy task. I can understand most (maybe not most, but a large portion of) what you've written. Sol505000 (euverlègk) 31 okt 2020 03:49 (CET)

The definition of Limburgish linguistically is substantially different from the perceived definition by the people themselves. Kirkräödsj is accepted here as the people themselves consider it Limburgish, albeit an outlier. The same is true for the Brabantic dialects in Northern Limburg, and they are accepted here as well.

So, the mean reason is what the speakers themselves think, as well as spelling (German-based spelling on ksh.wiki makes Kirkräödsj the outlier) and finding the wiki (people form Kirkraoj do find li.wiki, but they don't find ksh.wiki). --OosWesThoesBes (euverlègk) 31 okt 2020 08:23 (CET)

Fair enough, I'm dropping that issue. Would you then say that this WP is a better place for articles in Kerkraads? Because I still find it unacceptable to have the articles split over two wikis. It's a kind of a en:WP:CONTENTFORK issue. Sol505000 (euverlègk) 31 okt 2020 08:41 (CET)

That is an issue that is best to be resolved on ksh.wiki. It is clear that most of their Kirkräödsj contents is simply copied from here, with most of it consisting of outdated and shorter pages than here. --OosWesThoesBes (euverlègk) 31 okt 2020 08:46 (CET)

Verandering van de uitspraak van het Kerkraads?

Ik kom uit het Ripuarische gebied langs de Rijn in Duitsland. (Jullie verontschuldigen dus mijn Hollands.) Als ik naar de oude liedjes van Nico Ploum luister (zoals dit), dan klinkt zijn uitspraak heel Rijnlands. De jongere Jack Vinders klinkt heel veel Limburgser en minder vertrouwd (zoals hier). Ik kan het verschil moeilijk beschrijven, maar een ding wat duidelijk is is de uitspraak van de ch zoals in "ich" of "Kirchroa" die bij Nico Ploum en in het Rijnlands bijna of volledig met de sj samenvalt. Jack Vlinders spreekt darentegen een Limburgse ch, dus zoals in het Standaardduits of zelfs nog een klein beetje dieper in de keel (natuurlijk niet zo diep als in het Hollands). Nu vraag ik me af of dat verschil toe te wijten is aan plaatselijke dialecten binnen het Kerkraads of niet eerder aan een geleidelijke "verlimburgsing" van het Kerkraads, dus dat de uitspraak Limburgser wordt en minder Rijnlands. Kunnen jullie daar iets over zeggen? Bedankt!

Iech weit neet of dao oonderzeuk nao is gedoon. 't Is natuurlek woer tot 't Kèrkraojs ummer mie Hollandse wäörd euvernump en diech daodoor vreemder in de oere geit klinke. Meh de höbs 't hei euver accentversjèlle. Dat weit iech nog neet zoe zeker. De oetspraok vaan de ch es 'sj' associeer iech veural mèt Vaols. Dao zeet en sjrijf me ouch isj. In alle Kèrkraojse bronne is dat gewoen iech. Meh 't kin natuurlek bès. Nao d'n Oorlog is d'n invlood vaan 't Öchesj op 't Kirchröadsj compleet stèlgevalle: ierstens umtot dat dialek verdwijnt, twiedens umtot Kèrkraoj neet mie zoe sterk op Duitsland is geriech. Meh iech zouw 't neet euversjatte: Kèrkraojers en aander Limbörgers kinne ziech koelek verstoon, ouch noe nog neet. Steinbach (euverlègk) 19 fib 2019 08:53 (CET)

In eder Limbörgs dialek vinjen ouch accentueel verangeringe plaats. Dao haet Pierre Bakkes nag euver gesjreven in zien dissertaasje. Veurbiljer hievan in 't Mofers zeen de oetspraok van de "w"; die ieës puur labio-velair (wie 't Ingels) waas en noe mieë wie de res van Limbörg. Ouch kwa toeane sloot 't Mofers ieës mieër aan bie 't Zitterds, en noe mieë bie 't Remunjs: /ki~njer/ > /ki\njer/. Intersant zeen den veural de dinger wobie 't dialek juus taenge de standerdspraok ingeit, beveurbild "mieë" det ieës woort oetgespraoke wie 't is gesjreven en noe óngere jeug es /mjæ:/. --OosWesThoesBes (euverlègk) 19 fib 2019 10:47 (CET)

Touwvellig doeë ich óngerzeuk noa d'r ivlood van de sjtandaardsjproake Nederlands en Dütsj óp 't dialekgebroek i g'n regio va Venlo. Ich rich mich hei ónger mieë óp accentversjille en versjille i woadgebroek. Doavuur analyseer ich Wenker-Sätze, die ich ieësj mit behulp van de Rheinische Dokumenta transcribeer. Vervolges weëre vöalvuurkómmende lexicalische versjille tussje de dialekte mit behulp van de Swadesh-lies i kaat gebrach. Ich weet gans ierlig gezag neet of zölk óngerzeuk al ieëder is oetgeveurd in 't zude va Limburg. Waal han ich contak mit 'ne sjproakwetesjapper oet Bonn. Heë is expert óp 't gebeed van de Rheinische en Nederfrankische dialekte i Dütsjlank. De kins mich eventueel 'ne e-mail sjikke noa stephanvanalphen [at] gmail [dot] com. Dan zal ich höm vervolges dien vroag vuurlegke. Uëveriges kin ich óch ieëmes oet Kirkroa, deë de ch consequent es sj oetsjprik. Dat beteëkent natoerlig neet ónbedingt dat alle lüj oet die sjtad zoeë kalle. Missjien zint 't vuural ouw lüj of lüj van d'r heimatverein, die dat doeë. I jieëker geval kin me dit versjiensel als get Rienlands besjouwe, wiewaal 't mieë vuurkumt, vuural i Hesse, de Eifel en i g'n regio va Kölle. Óch d'r woadsjat weëd durch de sjtandaardsjproake beïnvleujd. Zoeë kinne v'r i Nederlands Limburg beivuurbild 't woad tillevies, mar i Dütsjlank zouw 't zoeëmar Fernsehen kinne zieë, of get wat doaróp liekent. --Stephan (euverlègk) 20 fib 2019 16:43 (CET)

German loanwords

Steinbach: The way I understand 't Kirchröadsj hat vöal Dütsje wöad, die 't in vöal anger Limburgse dialekte, oesjezóngerd 't Heëlesj, nit jitt. is, more or less, "The Kerkrade dialect has a lot of German loanwords that do not exist in most of (other) Limburgish dialects, except for the dialect of Heerlen". I don't quite understand how moezziek is a German loanword. Sol505000 (euverlègk) 30 okt 2020 17:37 (CET)

The [u] sound in moezziek, pronounced [mu'zik], betrays its German origin. Dutch muziek is pronounced [my'zik].

If you speak neither Limburgish, nor Dutch or German, you shouldn't be so confident in taking away things from articles. Steinbach (euverlègk) 30 okt 2020 17:40 (CET)

Steinbach: The word has a schwa in Limburgish, so how can we be sure which vowel it had in the past?

First, you don't have to speak a language to understand it. It's not that hard to figure out written Limburgish with limited knowledge of written Dutch and German. Second, what's lead you to believe that, especially after I translated that sentence? Is it not an accurate translation? I feel that your comment is out of place, especially given the fact that I haven't edit warred with you but pinged you here after you reverted me without a word of explanation as to why my edit was incorrect. Sol505000 (euverlègk) 30 okt 2020 17:58 (CET)

It's actually pronounced on the first syllable: /'muzik/, which I believe also happens in Köln. --OosWesThoesBes (euverlègk) 31 okt 2020 08:16 (CET)

Per [1], the pronunciation with initial stress is a western regionalism, rather than a prescribed Standard German pronunciation. I'm still not convinced that the word has a Standard German origin. It could be regionally pronounced /ˈmʊzɪk/ (actually almost [ˈmuzik] for some people in the area) because of the Ripuarian influence. Sol505000 (euverlègk) 31 okt 2020 08:41 (CET)

I think that is still covered, albeit ambiguously. The term "Dütsj" refers to German in a broad sense, including anything Ripuarian-inspired, and not to Hoeagduutsj specifically. I think adding a simple disclaimer like "Dütsje wäörd (of wäörd oet Duutsje streekspraok)" would suffice. --OosWesThoesBes (euverlègk) 31 okt 2020 08:49 (CET)